Omaha Hands, Part Deux, Results

Only got in 4 hours of play at Winstar on Saturday after getting a late start and having to wait an hour to get a seat. I sat down at a 1-2NL game as the Spurs-Suns game was starting, and I kid you not, the casino could not get reception for ABC. So we didn't watch the game. Which, I'm well aware, was amazing, a classic. It's too bad, because otherwise I thought the Winstar had a pretty nice poker room. Big, spacious, good spread of games. The only thing they were missing was a 1-2 PLO game. Only 2-5 PLO, and I wasn't going there.

The poker action was straightforward...won a huge pot when someone moved in to my left with 10-10 and I awoke with AA. One player with AK also got involved and I bounced up around $200. But I bled almost all of that away by the time I left. Lost a good chunk when I flopped the nut straight with 2 hearts, raised a flop bettor, got called by one player, then saw the third heart hit the turn. I bet, he pushed, I mucked. Awful awful turn card. I left up $10. It's almost like I was never there.

So I've posted the results to the Omaha hands from Friday. These aren't really the most interesting hands, but I posted them because they highlight a very common Omaha spot that I don't know how to play.

Hand 1
Full Tilt Poker Game #6039598342: Table Rams (6 max) - $0.10/$0.25 - Pot Limit Omaha Hi
Seat 1: noldmax ($28.05)
Seat 2: MissBanana ($29.15) <-- SB
Seat 3: RRWilson43 ($23.80) <-- BB
Seat 4: Producer_2 ($27.25)
Seat 5: EvilCon ($38.45)
Seat 6: Numberchaser23 ($35.25)

*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to noldmax [Jc 7s 9s Kh]
Producer_2 folds
EvilCon calls $0.25, Numberchaser23 calls $0.25, noldmax calls $0.25
MissBanana folds, RRWilson43 checks

*** FLOP *** [Js 6h 8c]
RRWilson43 checks, EvilCon checks
Numberchaser23 bets $1.10
noldmax calls $1.10 <-- OESD + TP
RRWilson43 folds
EvilCon folds

*** TURN *** [Js 6h 8c] [2d]
Numberchaser23 has 15 seconds left to act
Numberchaser23 bets $3.30
Hero?
noldmax folds
Numberchaser23 wins the pot ($3.15)

*** SUMMARY *** Total pot $3.30 Rake $0.15
Board: [Js 6h 8c 2d]
Seat 1: noldmax (button) folded on the Turn
6: Numberchaser23 collected ($3.15), mucked

The problem with this hand is that there are very few cards on the river that give me the confidence to make a raise if they hit. Only the 5 gives me the nuts. The 9 gives me 2nd nuts, and something like 9-10-Q is certainly in my opponent's range, so I could be looking at some reverse implied odds there. So yeah, it's a pretty easy fold on the river here.... which brings me back to the flop. If it was easy to fold the turn to a PSB, should it have been just as easy to fold the flop to a PSB? How has the decision-making changed?

Hand 2
Full Tilt Poker Game #6039691962: Table Rams (6 max) - $0.10/$0.25 - Pot Limit Omaha Hi
Seat 1: noldmax ($27.05)
Seat 2: MissBanana ($28.70)
Seat 3: RRWilson43 ($18.95)
Seat 4: Producer_2 ($28.75) <-- SB
Seat 5: EvilCon ($35.20) <-- BB
Seat 6: Numberchaser23 ($40.85)

*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to noldmax [5h 7c 6s 4c]
Numberchaser23 folds
noldmax calls $0.25
MissBanana folds, RRWilson43 calls $0.25, Producer_2 folds
EvilCon raises to $1.10
noldmax calls $0.85
RRWilson43 calls $0.85

*** FLOP *** [7s Jc 3d]
EvilCon bets $3.40
noldmax calls $3.40 <-- 9 outs to the nut straight
RRWilson43 folds

*** TURN *** [7s Jc 3d] [2s]
EvilCon bets $10.20
Hero?
noldmax calls $10.20 <-- Now 13 outs to nut straight, although 4 put a spade flush out.

*** RIVER *** [7s Jc 3d 2s] [Qs]
EvilCon bets $20.50, and is all in
noldmax folds
Uncalled bet of $20.50 returned to EvilCon
EvilCon mucks
EvilCon wins the pot ($29.10)

*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $30.60 Rake $1.50
Board: [7s Jc 3d 2s Qs]
Seat 1: noldmax folded on the River
Seat 6: Numberchaser23 didn't bet (folded)

Here I'm calling a PSB with 9 outs to the nuts. The main difference, and the reason I think the call is okay here, is that there is enough money behind to give me decent implied odds, and the low-end straight may be hard for my opponent to put me on. Also, I'm in position. So I don't have to lead out big if my straight card hits.

Hand 3
Full Tilt Poker Game #6039211021: Table Lund (6 max) - $0.10/$0.25 - Pot Limit Omaha Hi
Seat 1: RRRRRRUUUUUU ($65.20) <-- SB
Seat 2: tovrov ($21.80) <-- BB
Seat 3: Ne2wild2 ($8.65)
Seat 4: noldmax ($25)
Seat 5: DONKYMON ($75.80)
Seat 6: Disconnected ($17.95)

*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to noldmax [Qs 6d Th Qh]
Ne2wild2 folds
noldmax raises to $0.85
DONKYMON folds, Disconnected folds, RRRRRRUUUUUU folds
tovrov calls $0.60

*** FLOP *** [Js Ah 6h]
tovrov checks
noldmax bets $1.80
tovrov raises to $7.20
noldmax calls $5.40 <-- Gutshot + 2nd nut FD

*** TURN *** [Js Ah 6h] [3s]
tovrov bets $13.75, and is all in
Hero?
noldmax has 15 seconds left to act
noldmax has requested TIME
noldmax calls $13.75
tovrov shows [9c Qc Ad Jd]
noldmax shows [Qs 6d Th Qh]

*** RIVER *** [Js Ah 6h 3s] [8d]
tovrov shows two pair, Aces and Jacks
noldmax shows a pair of Queens
tovrov wins the pot ($41.55) with two pair, Aces and Jacks

*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $43.70 Rake $2.15
Board: [Js Ah 6h 3s 8d]
Seat 1: RRRRRRUUUUUU (small blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 2: tovrov (big blind) showed [9c Qc Ad Jd] and won ($41.55) with two pair, Aces and Jacks
Seat 3: Ne2wild2 didn't bet (folded)
Seat 4: noldmax showed [Qs 6d Th Qh] and lost with a pair of Queens
Seat 5: DONKYMON didn't bet (folded)
Seat 6: Disconnected (button) didn't bet (folded)

Now this call was a major mistake. No implied odds, drawing to the 2nd nut FD, and unlikely to be ahead when I call.

Now, once again, I'm interested in returning to the flop. Should I be folding here to the raise? What's interesting is how much your perception changes between the flop and the turn. On the flop, the amount of money you have to call for a PSB seems small, but by the turn that PSB has tripled in size (if there are only 2 players...it's even bigger if there are more). So I think it's worth asking if there isn't some amount of self-deception in thinking the flop call of a PSB is right, but the turn call is not (obv, if you miss). In actuality, I think it is dependent on a number of factors. These are standard factors in any poker game, but they become accentuated in Omaha, because I think they make the difference between whether you should be chasing a draw or not.

The factors:
1) Stack depth - If there aren't any implied odds, then it's a simple matter of drawing odds vs. pot odds. In Hand 3, the math was all wrong. I was drawing to 9 flush outs + 3 straight outs (one Kh), giving me, at best (assuming I don't lose to a K-high flush, and I don't split the pot if a K falls) 3.7-1 drawing odds, and 2-1 pot odds. Not even close. If we're stacked pretty deep, then the drawing odds have to be adjusted to factor in implied odds, and it might move closer to a calling situation.

2) Number of players - The more players involved, the better your odds. But, the more players involved, the more important it is that you are drawing to the absolute nuts. And also, the more likely that you might be splitting if you have a straight draw.

3) Position - If you are drawing to the river out of position, and you hit a flush or straight card, there is no guarantee that you are going to collect any more money. You probably have to lead out, and a river lead when an obvious draw card hits is unlikely to get paid off. From in position, you will sometimes be bet into, and if your opponent checks, he might interpret your subsequent river bet as a bluff attempt. Being in position greatly increases your implied odds.

This situation comes up frequently in PLO, so I'm looking for some guidelines on when you should be getting involved, and when you shouldn't.